Interview with US director Steven Soderbergh about “Black Bag”

Steven Soderbergh, you announced years ago here in Berlin that you wanted to give up directing. Now you're presenting your new thriller "Black Bag." Why do you still make films?

Oh, I said that a bit flippantly back then with my psychological thriller "Side Effects." But then I quickly realized: I was frustrated with the film industry, but definitely not with directing.

How did you notice that?

I realized it when I directed the medical drama "The Knick"—and then the independently financed feature film "Logan Lucky": Both times, I was in control of all the decisions and realized that I still love what I do. I promise you: the next time I retire, I'll just disappear and not say a word.

What do you like about directing?

You're dealing with people, with culture, with a lot of money. Something unexpected happens every minute—a highly complex game. When it works, it feels like a dopamine rush. However, cinema was the primary cultural force of the 20th century, but it's unlikely to be that in the 21st.

Will people stop going to the cinema?

Cinema won't die, even if audience numbers decline. Many adults, my target audience, are staying home. The situation is different for younger people, at least in the US. They also know a surprising amount about films. That gives me hope.

What has changed in filmmaking since your debut and Cannes-winning film “Sex, Lies and Videotape” in 1989?

The problems are still the same, whether you're making a small film like this or a big one like "Ocean's Eleven." You learn something from every film.

What did you learn from “Black Bag”?

During a test screening, it became clear that we had included too much information too quickly. We had to add an extra scene where the audience first gets to know the spies before everyone gathers for dinner at Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender's dining table. Otherwise, the audience would have been treated like strangers. I learned that a problem like this in a film has to be solved very early on.

What you mastered very early on is maximum efficiency during filming. "Black Bag" is 93 minutes long. Why are you so stingy with time?

Honestly, I think most films are too long. I want to reduce a story to its absolute essence. In "Black Bag," there was originally going to be another murder. But that would have just been a distraction. I cut out the entire scene.

How will the use of artificial intelligence change cinema?

In any case, AI is not the threat that those who don't use this tool talk about. Ultimately, it always takes humans to improve AI results.

What do you use AI for?

AI is great for visual effects. For example, you have the ability to instantly swap out a picture on the wall for another. What I don't understand is why someone would put so much effort into using AI to create something that looks real. In most cases, you get a better result by simply filming it. Why would I recreate a family drama with AI?

Because it's cheaper?

Yes, but viewers aren't fooled. The vacuum behind the AI ​​images alters perception. I can't imagine a scenario where AI could create something as vivid as the relationship conflict in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?"

AI might also have trouble replacing Pierce Brosnan. Why did you hire the former Bond?

James Bond always has to let his boss tell him what to do. Here, Brosnan, as the boss, gets to command: Go and kill someone! My only instruction to Pierce was that he was never allowed to sit down. As long as he was dynamic, he was unassailable. And when he was finally caught sitting down in the Japanese restaurant, his lunch was immediately ruined with the live fish. That wasn't real fish, by the way.

How will James Bond fare on Amazon’s streaming service in the future?

So, how do you develop this character further without losing everything that made him so appealing? The first difficult step is deciding who should play Bond. I don't envy Amazon this task. And then there are the defining "Jason Bourne" and "Mission: Impossible" films. So much has to be taken into account when creating a new version of Bond.

Will the Bond brand become a spare parts warehouse from which sequels, prequels, series, and animations are churned out, see “Star Wars”?

Rights holders Barbara Broccoli and Michael Wilson declined to expand the world of James Bond. Amazon paid for all of these options. So what will Amazon do? Will they destroy the connection to Bond? I don't think so. There are potentially parallel universes that can exist.

Have you been asked to direct the next Bond film?

No.

And if you were asked?

I've been approached twice before—after the crime comedies "Out of Sight" and "Ocean's Twelve." Both times, I asked if I would have creative control over the scripts. Both times, the answer was no. That was it.

Is your film “Black Bag” also a marriage advice book along the lines of: Trust your partner, even if you know you’re being lied to?

Trust is essential in a relationship. But it's equally important to keep something to yourself. Otherwise, you'll disappear. There are things in my wife's life that I don't know about. And I respect that. Let's put it this way: I would never try to get my hands on her laptop. She'll tell me if there's something important to me.

"You should definitely have trust in a relationship": Cate Blanchett as Kathryn and Michael Fassbender as George Woodhouse in "Black Bag".

Source: Claudette Barius/Focus Features

Did your screenwriter David Koepp actually research the love lives of spies?

When David was writing the first "Mission: Impossible" movie, he spoke with a female intelligence agent who complained that it was impossible to have a relationship as a spy. She had to lie constantly. The intelligence community, as far as I know, is the only industry where male and female employees are encouraged to date each other.

Sounds like limited partner choices.

The espionage business is changing in general. A spy can no longer hide behind multiple identities. Four passports won't help. Biometrics have advanced too far. We are witnessing a return to an analog form of espionage.

What does this mean in practice?

The spy goes to the location where he wants to obtain information. He stays there for a long time, builds a trustworthy persona, and only then tries to win over a source. The strange thing is: At the same time, technological capabilities are limitless, allowing hacking into any phone, camera, and computer. No one transmits sensitive data over the phone anymore...

...apart from the US government, which sets up a chat group and invites a journalist to join.

Oh my God, wow, that was a clown show!

Did you get your film approved by the agent industry?

Yes, at a test screening, experts said there were a few things in the film that wouldn't happen.

For example?

In the film, a spy pulls out his cell phone in the office building. However, it's not allowed to carry a phone in the office. It could be tapped. A high-ranking spy wouldn't meet with a contact alone either. However, our test audience accepted that we were following dramatic reasons.

Why did you move your story from the US to the UK?

I wanted to be part of the British spy family – in the footsteps of James Bond and Harry Palmer.

Is it even possible to make spy films in the US that follow familiar patterns? Can US agents work for the Trump administration and still be good guys?

I'm working on a project involving an FBI agent investigating a right-wing extremist. Suddenly, we're faced with the question of whether we need to revise the narrative. The current administration wouldn't even take action against such a person. And the difficulties go even further.

How come?

The US intelligence services have stopped tracking anything happening in Russia on the cyber front. You can't make a film about this anymore if it's supposed to be set in today's US. Unless you pretend Trump isn't president and the film is pure fantasy. As a viewer, that would seem strange to me.

So you fled to London with foresight.

Well, my agents are still fighting for good.

How comfortable do you still feel in the USA?

You know, I have writer friends in England, well-known people. Their lawyers advised them not to travel to the United States. These friends did nothing more than express their opinions. But they would have to provide a list of their social media accounts upon entry.

What are your friends doing?

They decided not to take the risk. They all have families, and they know the stories of people who have been imprisoned. It could happen to them, too.

When will resistance to such practices grow ?

We all need to consider: What does an opposition look like today? If you disagree with current policies, what do you do? You can call your representative or your senator. The problem is that the right-wing had a 40-year plan to take over the courts. And they've done it. They control the Supreme Court. Now it's a question of whether the US president can fundamentally reshape the government and whether the Supreme Court will rule in his favor. That's pretty scary.

Will you stay in the USA?

I have to go to London now to finish my next film, "The Christophers." I don't know anything else. I enjoy working in London. That might be a reason to stay on this side of the world. My films often do better here than in the US, including "Black Bag." I'm well-known in Europe. I'd really have more fun complaining about reality. But I guess I'll have to adapt to it. We'll see.